Community Service... Fame for All (NO F!@$ SWAY)

[zoombini]

I almost always do randomways in HA. I also almost always bring 2 hero's. My first "judgement" for random people is: Are they better than a hero?

Abilities my heros can do:

Not trigger timer in zaishen (the first true test of intelligence)
bring/use rez sig
run most builds (as in have lots of skills/runes available - pvp char)
kite in circles when someone attacks
follow target calls
not overextend
spread out, hide behind walls, not clutter in chokepoints (via flagging)
not qq

Things I'd like them to be able to do:

kill nature's renewal + tranquility (how hard can that be?)
stay out (as in STAY OUT) of AoE (like savanah/teinais/searing heat)
be able to pick up a relic and run with it
bodyblock enemies (like ghostly on stairs)
switch targets when its protted

If you can do these simple yet effective things, you should have a good start and earn a solid spot in my randomway. As far as "player skill" is concerned, just practice, be open to suggestions, learn from mistakes, and ALWAYS think of how you could have done better

Some of you may have seen me, IGN: Moremess For Less (r6 if it matters any)
I run powerblock mesmer, and if the team has some good players, we can usually beat underworld, sometimes fetid, and once in a while burial. Or we skip to golden gates/halls. If the map is running arenas, just expect to lose but really try to understand the objectives/strategies in these arenas.

Im always looking for new people, hope to see you there!

[Keithark]

Originally Posted by llsektorll

Ok, so everyone knows the grind from r0-r3 is like living through hell of repeating underworld over and over.

I hate to see people having to resort to sway, rit spike, or even back in the day IWAY.

I use to form many HA groups back in the day but I've long since given up leading as I quit HA and went back to went back what I usually do ... GvG...

Anyways, 4am I got really bored and had the urge to HA... considering it being 4am eastern I couldn't find any decent players ... so I started playing with unranked players...

They weren't as bad as I thought... sure my PD just unlocked PD and my Para ne very wielded a spear.... but that didn't stop me for owning SWAY....

I just hope other bored exp players will help out the noobs to steer them in the right direction... there is Huge wall blocking the avid interested pve players from reaching HA.... i hope to help bridge some of that gap and get some fresh faces into HA (that doesn't sway)...

I only hope others will follow my lead.

I understand what you are saying, I went from like 20 fame to 130-140 something this weekend all with sway and it was boring...but go to HA some time with title off and do not play with anyone that knows you and just see if you can get in a group that can get any fame. I GvG and RA and have over 1 mil balth and UAX but getting into HA without leaving my guild (I will not do that) is very hard to do. Sway is the only way to get rank for someone in my position. What I can't figure out is once you farm your rank up with sway to whatever rank you need to get in a "good" group you want then how do you transition to running a "real" build? You don't really know anymore at r3 4 or 5 by sway than you do at rank 0 (or at least I don't know any more at rank 2 3/4 than I did at rank 0 about HA) other than some of the chokepoints and such on different maps. I don't see anything a-net could do to make HA more available to players, the HA community would have to do that by playing with noobs like me and most of them see no reward in doing so.

[Kyp Jade]

Originally Posted by Keithark

... I don't see anything a-net could do to make HA more available to players, ..

Actually it was not to long ago that low level pugs became prohibitive on higher level maps. At your skill level, you can at least be successful on the first three maps.

The next map, relic run, is basic enough that you just need to learn how to carry a relic from point A to point B while being snared to hell and back, and simultaneously snaring thier runner. You can really easily learn how to play on this map.

The next map, is just a killer for low level pugs, and the introduction of 1v1 capture points is among the most retarded ideas Anet has given us since 6v6 Heroes Ascent. Even kill count was doable for the lower tier players.
The dynamics of 1v1 Capture point are a million times different than a 3 way, you have to deal with splits, counter splits, collapses, and most of all timing them. Antechamber I can see being ok for this as much as I hate that map, because its the highest map. Forgotten is a middle map, Pretty dumb to put such a complicated objective on a map that lower tier players will have trouble learning the tricks of it.

The more sad thing, is that for your skill level, after playing on forgotten shrines, your 'home free' in terms of objective difficulty until you reach antechamber.

Tombs was meant to be a casual arena thats a bit more organized than TA, but less competitive than GvG. But atm, you have a failed experiement where some dev said 'wouldnt this be cool, the gamers will love it!'.

[llsektorll]

main reason the guys sway is because they don't have a good enough build to beat it....

there are alternatives... Great leaders of groups start leading early on. Take the initiative if you can notice many things at the map at the same time try setting up and leading your party. Leading a party has its own satisfaction.

From most feedback I get form people they say they sway because nothing else works for them or no one is forming anything else for their level. I'm calling out all the leaders out there to take the initiative to form the r0-r3 or r3+ groups. Obviosuly you can't run balance or expect PD to pd everything. The experience level just isn't there. The reason balance builds fail for noobs is because those builds weren't meant for noobs. To put it into perspective you are trying to dunk into the hoop when you are only 4ft tall. It's just not happening. Try running something simpler but equally as effective.

I'll try posting some builds for the low rank groups.

EDIT: Searing Flames Spike still works for quick rack up of fame. Basically 6 Searing Flames Eles and 2 monks. 1 RC prot and other Healers Boon Infuse.

[Zaiden]

Heh, I like the initiative. I tried myself to make a guild to help unranked learn the basics of HA (yep it did fail after 2 days due to the lack of interest )
I am not very high ranked (r6) but I am up to help you. If you unranked want to play a balanced build (no a/d crap or 321 euro spike type of builds) just PM me in-game, I'll try to form a group with you .

IGN -> Super Frog

[llsektorll]

Originally Posted by Zaiden

Heh, I like the initiative. I tried myself to make a guild to help unranked learn the basics of HA (yep it did fail after 2 days due to the lack of interest )
I am not very high ranked (r6) but I am up to help you. If you unranked want to play a balanced build (no a/d crap or 321 euro spike type of builds) just PM me in-game, I'll try to form a group with you .

IGN -> Super Frog

a/d build still works quite well and you'd be surprised I tried it with r0s and it was fail... mainly because monks at that level are BAD....

spike is all that will win in HA. Because of the nature of the game play it is highly effective. To be good with balance like hex pressure you have to play with VERY good players. I can guarantee you that if I pug r9-10s and run hexway it will fail. Don't expect miracles.

Low rank guys expect to play the best builds and think they can win. You guys have to understand it doesn't work like that. The guild that runs it, plays together all the time. They have their own style that you won't be able to replicate.

Run something simple yet effective. Spikes take true skill to run. It is totally dependent on the caller. It might be a good time to start practicing calling (because a good caller is better than the beast infuse )..... If anyone wants to lead... I'll give you one word of advice someone told me. Control your team like a chess board. If you make the wrong moves your team will fail.

For the rest of you guys stop running sway... and PLEASE DOWNLOAD VENTRILO from http://ventrilo.com/ .

[neal916]

^^^^^


oh how i agree with sektor so much it makes me cry lol. but seriously im down to run a group with some unranked pugs provided they all have vent (r8 here) IGN chibi desi (friends it.) no sway tho.

[TheHaxor]

Guild Wars is not UNICEF.

Don't get me wrong, it is good that you want to help people. The problem is that the way you are going about it is completely wrong. According to the way you are explaining it, you (or others) would basically be forming the groups, giving out builds, and telling everyone what to do. The problem with this approach is that people don't get a deep understanding of how things work. If the build you give them is successful, they will not understand why the build is more successful than other builds. They will simply see that the build is successful by their results and continue to run the successful build. They will start depending on you for success, which is not the result you are looking for. When something changes that causes them to be unsuccessful, the players will go back to being in the same position they are now until they are given another successful build or situation. What you are doing is no different than what the people who play sway do.

The initial stage of HA is a bitch, but almost all players had to go through it (unless previously networked). It is mostly composed of failure. Failure is one of the most important parts of learning in this game. To begin, everything is basically trial and error. Great success is only had through a great number of errors. After a great number of failures, things become very clear. You start to understand what elements are the most important to a successful build/team. You begin to understand what role(s) you fulfill the best. After you finally are able to understand how to be successful, the next step is polishing your individual skill in the roles you play so you can start playing with the big boys. At the same time, you are building a database of friends that you can use when you create groups or that can pull you into their groups. Networking is a large part of success because pugging only gets you so far. Being able to pull proven good players into your groups will increase your success dramatically.

The only way to be successful at anything is to work at it and this is no exception. You have to really want to be a good player to become one. This means you actually have to be willing to put in the time and effort to becoming a good player. The fame will come as you become a better player and it will come in bigger chunks with time. The only thing this would do for the no ranked players is kill the learning process. Sure, you might actually get more players to play HA for a short time, but most won't amount to anything because they won't be willing to put the work in.

If you really want to help HA and low ranked players, then answer their questions, join groups they make, or mentor them. Don't do everything for them. Tell them what they did well, what they did poorly, and give them some things they can work on. You can't bring them from point A to point B, but you can show them the way.

[valence]

Sorry but your logic failed after the 3rd sentence. In order to undertand good builds you have to play it. New players cannot make new builds like that, but by playing those good builds they will find out WHAT makes them good and in time they will understand what makes a build tick.

That is the first learning process in understanding how builds work.

Basically you are saying play sway, easy to run and is your level. These people want to show there are different ways to play the game. There is nothing wrong with calling some tactics for others, you can learn from others, even from your babysitter.

You will learn 10 times faster if somebody above your level helps you out, there is no doubt about.

[TheHaxor]

Originally Posted by valence

Sorry but your logic failed after the 3rd sentence. In order to undertand good builds you have to play it. New players cannot make new builds like that, but by playing those good builds they will find out WHAT makes them good and in time they will understand what makes a build tick.

You are simply not going to understand what makes a build good as an aspiring HA player without a basis for comparison. Running a build over and over again isn't necessarily going to help you understand what makes it tick. Simply running a good build isn't going to help them understand how to make more good builds.

Originally Posted by valence

That is the first learning process in understanding how builds work.

Basically you are saying play sway, easy to run and is your level. These people want to show there are different ways to play the game. There is nothing wrong with calling some tactics for others, you can learn from others, even from your babysitter.

Apparently you didn't even read what I wrote. I'm not saying they should run sway. Non ranked teams run a larger variety of builds than just sway. You are typecasting non ranked players.

Learning how builds work comes with time. It is something I would consider to be a part of the entire learning process, not just the initial.

Originally Posted by valence

You will learn 10 times faster if somebody above your level helps you out, there is no doubt about.

You have to actually want to learn in the first place, not have someone else do the work for you. Answering questions and giving people things to improve upon would be a lot more helpful than just microing them around HA.

[llsektorll]

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

Guild Wars is not UNICEF.

Don't get me wrong, it is good that you want to help people. The problem is that the way you are going about it is completely wrong. According to the way you are explaining it, you (or others) would basically be forming the groups, giving out builds, and telling everyone what to do. The problem with this approach is that people don't get a deep understanding of how things work. If the build you give them is successful, they will not understand why the build is more successful than other builds. They will simply see that the build is successful by their results and continue to run the successful build. They will start depending on you for success, which is not the result you are looking for. When something changes that causes them to be unsuccessful, the players will go back to being in the same position they are now until they are given another successful build or situation. What you are doing is no different than what the people who play sway do.

The initial stage of HA is a bitch, but almost all players had to go through it (unless previously networked). It is mostly composed of failure. Failure is one of the most important parts of learning in this game. To begin, everything is basically trial and error. Great success is only had through a great number of errors. After a great number of failures, things become very clear. You start to understand what elements are the most important to a successful build/team. You begin to understand what role(s) you fulfill the best. After you finally are able to understand how to be successful, the next step is polishing your individual skill in the roles you play so you can start playing with the big boys. At the same time, you are building a database of friends that you can use when you create groups or that can pull you into their groups. Networking is a large part of success because pugging only gets you so far. Being able to pull proven good players into your groups will increase your success dramatically.

The only way to be successful at anything is to work at it and this is no exception. You have to really want to be a good player to become one. This means you actually have to be willing to put in the time and effort to becoming a good player. The fame will come as you become a better player and it will come in bigger chunks with time. The only thing this would do for the no ranked players is kill the learning process. Sure, you might actually get more players to play HA for a short time, but most won't amount to anything because they won't be willing to put the work in.

If you really want to help HA and low ranked players, then answer their questions, join groups they make, or mentor them. Don't do everything for them. Tell them what they did well, what they did poorly, and give them some things they can work on. You can't bring them from point A to point B, but you can show them the way.

While some things you say do have a valid point, I must stress the fact that I am "teaching them to fish." So they are self reliant. My only concern is without a leader in their group it will usually end up a failure.

Things were a lot simpler back in the day. TA/RA/AB had no titles. The only title was tombs title. This fact alone brought many players from PvE to earn fame or at least attempt to earn fame.

I do agree that everyone has to struggle to earn their r3. Back when this game came out I would get in group for 3hrs only to go into underworld then people would rage quit. Sad indeed. The fact that HA was the only title made it worthwhile for me to stay.

Some think, you need to RA/TA to prep myself for HA. That is totally wrong. While RA/TA will teach you the game mechanics, it won't teach you how to work together as a team.

In short I want to help struggling people with their r3. Where they go from there is their own choice. I can only hope they will stay to help to expand the HA community.

[valence]

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

Apparently you didn't even read what I wrote. I'm not saying they should run sway. Non ranked teams run a larger variety of builds than just sway. You are typecasting non ranked players.

Then read my post again. microíng does reveal tactics if you haven't heard of it. Playing a build you would otherwise not run does reveal other factors of a build and people will learn from that. You can take a good build, but you don't know how to run it. If someone shows how to run it, people will learn from it.

People need to stop contradicting themself. This game has an harsh entry barrier, being sad by lots of people. Learning it takes time, and to narrow the time needed having someone to explain stuff for you, will greatly speed it up. I can make quotes from several top players in 'how to get into pvp topics' that knowing people who can play and willing to help you is the best way to get better besides getting lots of raw experience in. Not everything can be learned from obs, not every tactic reveals themself in obs for new players.

To take another example from the Gaile topic:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

In education, that's handled by having courses and degree programs that progress steadily until a desired level of understanding is reached. Once you leave school, you have to continue that progression frequently without an instructor. In games, you progress via learning in-game and via the progression avenues the game provides you with. Again, this is a responsibility of the game design, not the players.

Basically education speeds up your understanding. You do not need it, nobody needs school, you can teach math yourself. You can learn gw by yourself, but you can also have a friend helping you out. No doubt the latter is more effective.

[tylerraz]

People need to have initiative and learn themselves but they really need a fundamental basis to start on. I'm r8 and join unrankeds/r3 groups rather often for quick matches and to help out, and there really is a lack of fundamentals in both player skill and build design. In regards to build design, leaders/groups are working with builds that don't have ANY interupts, snares, party healing, off-monk defensive, sources of deepwound (!!!!)... and say if they have the potential for a spike/mini-spike(at the minimum, deepwound+enchant removal) in the build they think "o this is a pressure build we NEVER EVER SPIKE."

Sway, even, has interupts, snares, party healing, off-monk defensive, deep wound--to think that a 'balanced' build without these build aspects has a chance in hell without these build aspects is just ridiculous.


Sektor mentioned sf spike earlier, and you can do it the simple way with 6 sf eles with the same build (that often happens), or you can do little adjustments like giving one ele wards, another ele weapon of warding, heal party, rend enchant, etc that actually makes the team build robust, yet the simple aoe spike is there for kills.
If you apply this method to general builds that unrankeds say they want to play, its basically the same... make sure you have wards, WoW, a spike, aoe,
, enchant removal, and voila, theres a basis for success.

And imo, most builds can always benefit from skills like ward against foes and weapon of warding.

and then on a player level, HB monks seem to use orison too much and Heal party not enough (seems to happen even in r6/8+ groups, lol), mesmers resort to pd spam to early when they would be more effective with the other 6 skills on the bar, fire eles follow targets instead of looking for better places to hit with aoe; in short theres something fundamentally wrong that less experienced people do that most experienced players take for granted, and because we take it for granted, its not passed on very well when we try to teach.
One of the first steps is identifying those build aspects and skill/strategy fundamentals that you just can't HA with out, then explain them and then make sure the people that are getting helped out know them and swear by them, and practice them. I talking about things like why channel tanking is usually good, and why killing characters beside monks can be the right thing to do. Newbies have to be taught the fundamentals before you can expect them to play well... I wish i had a clever analogy to back that up.

-ty

[TheHaxor]

Originally Posted by valence

Then read my post again. microíng does reveal tactics if you haven't heard of it. Playing a build you would otherwise not run does reveal other factors of a build and people will learn from that. You can take a good build, but you don't know how to run it. If someone shows how to run it, people will learn from it.

People need to stop contradicting themself. This game has an harsh entry barrier, being sad by lots of people. Learning it takes time, and to narrow the time needed having someone to explain stuff for you, will greatly speed it up. I can make quotes from several top players in 'how to get into pvp topics' that knowing people who can play and willing to help you is the best way to get better besides getting lots of raw experience in. Not everything can be learned from obs, not every tactic reveals themself in obs for new players.

No, you really didn't understand my post at all. I was pointing out that it is more effective to help out a few players that really want to work at being good in HA than it is to take on 7 players that have no idea what they are doing. With a few players, you can easily observe how they are playing and give them things to work on. You will have a larger impact doing it that way. I was only pointing out flaws in this method. It had absolutely nothing to do with him helping players because I think it is a great thing. I simply think there is a better way to do it than this. There is a reason many studies indicate people perform better in smaller class sizes.

BTW the entry barrier isn't all that harsh if you put the time in. It's just that a lot of people aren't willing to work for anything.

[wuzzman]

I heard you guys where eurospiking?!?!?!

Anyway if the entry barrier wasn't so harsh why does this thread exist?

[llsektorll]

I agree with a few posts above the r3 team leaders when forming a build miss out a few key skills that are very important to the diverse maps of HA.

Always take Snares for Relic Running...
Always take Song of Concentration for Ghostly Hero Capping
Take some sort of interrupt skill to stop opposing team Ghostly Hero from Capping
One monk should have infuse health as it is a super heal to counter spike teams
Take One Restore Condition monk as most teams are running condition heavy builds


on a side note I'm working on a VERY extensive guide for r0-r6 group leaders to help them call the right tactics on every map in HA. It is turning out to be a larger post than I thought... expect it up in a few days ... as it is finals time for me xD..

[yakuza]

hehe nice sektor hope to see it soon....it better be good cause i'm bored as hell lately

[Trinity Fire Angel]

i don;t quit or QQ. the main satisfaction i get from playing a good HA or Gvg game is staying alive against a good team and slowly bringing them down due to tactics.

my pvp IGN is; Woot For Monks - i play Sin, Monk, Ele but have most other skills unlocked. willing to play other builds.

EDIT: Mostly play Rit now for PVP. more fun

[Patsrule711]

Ign: Pbnation Ftw

ill add you to friends list. Iv got 14 or 15 fame currently. I used to do spirit spam for Iway back in the day.

level 20 char: Warr, Ranger, ele, monk and paragon(just got to level 20 not many skills)

[elektra_lucia]

your avatar is dumb, go RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO yourself with some weird ASCII Tenticle porn.